Discussion:
From my Diary
(too old to reply)
Cap. James Cook
2008-02-14 04:58:26 UTC
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This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...

"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"

It is on the public record that I wrote this when I landed in what has since
become Australia.
Kangazoo
2008-02-14 05:10:31 UTC
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Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
It is on the public record that I wrote this when I landed in what has since
become Australia.
Careful there! You'll be dubbed a racist!

Lizzy
Fran
2008-02-14 05:24:28 UTC
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Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.

It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.

Fran
Duggy
2008-02-14 05:27:50 UTC
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Post by Fran
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Yes, but they were white, so clearly better.

===
= DUG.
===
Sir John Howard
2008-02-14 06:09:01 UTC
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Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
Based on what evidence, Flan?
Post by Fran
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
So you're admitting your roots now, Flan?
David Springthorpe
2008-02-14 06:41:34 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:09:01 -0800 (PST), Sir John Howard
Post by Sir John Howard
Post by Fran
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
Based on what evidence, Flan?
Go away and read your history books.
Fran
2008-02-14 07:13:18 UTC
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Post by Sir John Howard
Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
Based on what evidence, Flan?
Based on the evidence of most escapees who tried to manage this feat.
But since when are you interested in evidence? You just post any old
crap.
Post by Sir John Howard
Post by Fran
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
So you're admitting your roots now, Flan?
This was the taproot of European Australia. Your hero shares it.

Fran
Sir John Howard
2008-02-14 09:50:38 UTC
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Post by Fran
Post by Sir John Howard
Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
Based on what evidence, Flan?
Based on the evidence of most escapees who tried to manage this feat.
And what tools and utensils would those escapees have had?
Post by Fran
But since when are you interested in evidence? You just post any old
crap.
That's sounds a bit ad hom to me.
Post by Fran
Post by Sir John Howard
Post by Fran
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
So you're admitting your roots now, Flan?
This was the taproot of European Australia. Your hero shares it.
Fran
Taproot, eh?
Stan Pierce
2008-02-14 07:59:51 UTC
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Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.

It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran

#Not only the English but everybody in the rest of the world behaved in the
same way up until then. What the English did was find out how to improve
things and so you now have sewage treatment plants. Show me anyone else
who had the brains to do it.
Also, Australia was not meant to be a dumping ground for the prisoners in
the hulks...America was. Australia was only considered after the American
Revolution. So Australian settlement was all quite accidental really. You
should study more and not be so damned ignorant.
Fran
2008-02-14 08:47:59 UTC
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Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
#Not only the English but everybody in the rest of the world behaved in the
same way up until then.    
Which makes my observation yet stgronger.
Post by Fran
What the English did was find out how to improve
things and so you now have sewage treatment plants.
When the stench hit Windsor Castle ...
Post by Fran
 Show me anyone else
who had the brains to do it.
Also, Australia was not meant to be a dumping ground for the prisoners in
the hulks...America was.   Australia was only considered after the American
Revolution.  
The point stands. The English cultural and legal system had created
problems that were beyond it -- a classic example of
unsustainability.
Post by Fran
So Australian settlement was all quite accidental really.  You
should study more and not be so damned ignorant.
Everyone should study more, except perhaps you. In your case, you're
bound to be just as stupid and ignorant as ever.

On this matter however, my facts are accurate and pertinent.

Fran
lynx
2008-02-14 13:58:31 UTC
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Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
#Not only the English but everybody in the rest of the world behaved in the
same way up until then. What the English did was find out how to improve
things and so you now have sewage treatment plants. Show me anyone else
who had the brains to do it.
Also, Australia was not meant to be a dumping ground for the prisoners in
the hulks...America was. Australia was only considered after the American
Revolution. So Australian settlement was all quite accidental really. You
should study more and not be so damned ignorant.
Fran is an idiot.
--
rgds,

Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'I'm busy right now. Can I ignore you some other time?'
Rifty
2008-02-15 06:09:53 UTC
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Post by lynx
Fran is an idiot.
Anyone who posts a one line assertion supposedly as a rejoinder to a
serious comment is far more likely to be the idiot.

(Yes, that was one line, but it's not in response to a serious comment -
just to a little piece of arrant stupidity.)

Rifty
--
riftynet - put a dot after rifty
Fran
2008-02-15 07:46:44 UTC
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Post by Rifty
Post by lynx
Fran is an idiot.
Anyone who posts a one line assertion supposedly as a rejoinder to a
serious comment is far more likely to be the idiot.
The fact that it posts this to an avowed genocidal sociopath
underlines your point.

Of course, 'lynx' is very probably a sock from the LJH family, and
this explains why its interest is confined to trolling abuse.

It knows better than to offer a substantive observation. It's an
ignorant tosspot.

Fran
m***@hotmail.com
2008-02-14 08:38:06 UTC
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Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
Some future government has going to have to apologise for Fran
stealing the education of a whole generation of her unfortunate
students.

God I hope you don't teach history you ignoramus.
Fran
2008-02-14 08:48:59 UTC
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Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
Some future government has going to have to apologise for Fran
stealing the education of a whole generation of her unfortunate
students.
God I hope you don't teach history you ignoramus
As it happens, *this* year, I am filling in two periods per week. Most
enjoyable.

Fran
m***@hotmail.com
2008-02-14 08:52:07 UTC
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Post by Fran
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
Some future government has going to have to apologise for Fran
stealing the education of a whole generation of her unfortunate
students.
God I hope you don't teach history you ignoramus
As it happens, *this* year, I am filling in two periods per week. Most
enjoyable.
Fran- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
God help the little children?

How do explain how the unsofisticated british actually made it across
oceans but would not survive at sydney cove?

Pray tell!
H.D.
2008-02-14 10:49:46 UTC
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Post by Fran
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
Some future government has going to have to apologise for Fran
stealing the education of a whole generation of her unfortunate
students.
God I hope you don't teach history you ignoramus
As it happens, *this* year, I am filling in two periods per week. Most
enjoyable.
Fran- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
God help the little children?

How do explain how the unsofisticated british actually made it across
oceans but would not survive at sydney cove?

Pray tell!

How do you explain Ferdinand Magellan make it all the way to Cebu but did
not survive a meeting with Chief Lapu-Lapu?
Fran
2008-02-15 04:18:49 UTC
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Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by Fran
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
Some future government has going to have to apologise for Fran
stealing the education of a whole generation of her unfortunate
students.
God I hope you don't teach history you ignoramus
As it happens, *this* year, I am filling in two periods per week. Most
enjoyable.
Fran- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
God help the little children?
How do explain how the unsofisticated british actually made it across
oceans but would not survive at sydney cove?
Well you'll note that I never claimed that they were rubbish at
sailing. I merely noted the absurdity of Cook offering a view on how
wretched the indigenes were when any non-aristocrat plucked from the
streets of any town or city in the UK at random could have given an
eminently more detailed account of what living wretched was like.

The UK was a society literally, as well as figuratively, wallowing in
its own refuse and misery. We don't know what life expectancy was
amongst the indigenes, but life expectancy in Britain in the 1770s was
about 50, assuming you were unlucky enough to live that long.

Hobbes classic descriptor of life 'nasty brutish and short' really did
apply. Systematic prostitution including of children, rampant disease
and the most hideous of working conditions punctuated the lives of
these poor people. Every winter in large numbers, many would die in
doorways or under brdges from the cold as the more fortunate
countrymen avcerted their eyes stepping over them. In amongst all of
that was a history of war, repressive violence, crime, and a
burgeoning of the offences for which one could be killed or worse,
sent into prison. British society was one of the few in the world that
thought punishing people for the 'crime' of being poor was a good
idea.

The people who greeted Cook, on the other hand, lived a simple
existence in an unspoiled wilderness, blissfully unaware that such
horrors even existed. There's no evidence at all that they engaged in
any kind of conflict on the scale of the 100 years war. They had no
government or state or organised work. They spent their lives doing
pretty much what they liked. Left alone, they'd not have pined for
anything else.

There was all kinds of wretchedness in 1770, but I fancy that most of
the poor of Britain would have traded their lot in a second for such
'wretchedness'.

That said, the purported entry offered by the OP seems bogus and
likely trolling. Cook's party saw the indigenes very much as 'noble
savages' and through the prism of the Garden of Eden story. I'd be
surprised if that's what he wrote. The following entry is dated 19
April 1770. If he were to say something of his first impressions, he
would surely have said it here:

||||
I've found it! The greatest moment in my life has been realized! I
sailed west across the Tasman Sea and reached the southeast coast of
the Southern Continent. I have named it New South Wales.

We are forced to tack in and off the shore in order to avoid the surf.
But the danger pales in comparison to the excitement everyone feels
about discovering a new land. Not since Columbus has a discovery like
this been made.

We have met some of the natives already. They appear darker than the
natives of the Pacific Islands, but they are not Africans. Our guide
and translator from Otaheite, Tupaia, is not able to speak or
understand their language. They were not interested in any of our
gifts either. It is very strange, but they are indifferent to us.

Mr. Banks and Dr.Solander are greatly looking forward to cataloging
the flora and fauna of the land. We will probably go farther inland
within the next few days.

cited in Beaglehole, J. C., The Life of Captain James Cook, (1974)
Owen, Roderic, Great Explorers, 1979

|||

Fran
Rifty
2008-02-15 06:09:53 UTC
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Post by Fran
They were not interested in any of our
gifts either. It is very strange, but they are indifferent to us.
Hell hath no fury like a Briton spurned.

Your utopian description of pre-European life in Oz (for which you will
be roundly pilloried as a naive supporter of the 'noble savage' thesis,
no doubt) reminds me of the old joke:

The wealthy English businessman goes holidaying in Jamaica and sees a
local inhabitant asleep under a tree.

"Get up, man," says the Brit, "And do some work for a change."

"Why?" says the local.

"So you can earn a lot of money" responds the Brit.

"What would I do with it?" he asks

"You could have a nice holiday on a tropical island, and lie in the sun
all day."

"But I'm doing that now..."

Rifty
--
riftynet - put a dot after rifty
Fran
2008-02-15 07:29:20 UTC
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Post by Rifty
 They were not interested in any of our
gifts either. It is very strange, but they are indifferent to us.
Hell hath no fury like a Briton spurned.
Your utopian description of pre-European life in Oz (for which you will
be roundly pilloried as a naive supporter of the 'noble savage' thesis,
The wealthy English businessman goes holidaying in Jamaica and sees a
local inhabitant asleep under a tree.
"Get up, man," says the Brit, "And do some work for a change."
"Why?"  says the local.
"So you can earn a lot of money" responds the Brit.
"What would I do with it?" he asks
"You could have a nice holiday on a tropical island, and lie in the sun
all day."
"But I'm doing that now..."
I recall an Irish version of the same joke.


Dave Allenby I think.

Fran
Rifty
2008-02-15 11:07:23 UTC
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Post by Fran
Post by Rifty
Post by Fran
They were not interested in any of our
gifts either. It is very strange, but they are indifferent to us.
Hell hath no fury like a Briton spurned.
Your utopian description of pre-European life in Oz (for which you will
be roundly pilloried as a naive supporter of the 'noble savage' thesis,
The wealthy English businessman goes holidaying in Jamaica and sees a
local inhabitant asleep under a tree.
"Get up, man," says the Brit, "And do some work for a change."
"Why?" says the local.
"So you can earn a lot of money" responds the Brit.
"What would I do with it?" he asks
"You could have a nice holiday on a tropical island, and lie in the sun
all day."
"But I'm doing that now..."
I recall an Irish version of the same joke.
I suspect there's a version everywhere where men sit under trees in the
hot sun doing nothing.
Post by Fran
Dave Allenby I think.
More likely Dave Allen.

Rifty
--
riftynet - put a dot after rifty
Fran
2008-02-15 11:49:56 UTC
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Post by Rifty
Post by Fran
Post by Rifty
 They were not interested in any of our
gifts either. It is very strange, but they are indifferent to us.
Hell hath no fury like a Briton spurned.
Your utopian description of pre-European life in Oz (for which you will
be roundly pilloried as a naive supporter of the 'noble savage' thesis,
The wealthy English businessman goes holidaying in Jamaica and sees a
local inhabitant asleep under a tree.
"Get up, man," says the Brit, "And do some work for a change."
"Why?"  says the local.
"So you can earn a lot of money" responds the Brit.
"What would I do with it?" he asks
"You could have a nice holiday on a tropical island, and lie in the sun
all day."
"But I'm doing that now..."
I recall an Irish version of the same joke.
I suspect there's a version everywhere where men sit under trees in the
hot sun doing nothing.
Post by Fran
Dave Allenby I think.
More likely Dave Allen.
That's right.

Fran

Zuby
2008-02-15 06:47:23 UTC
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Post by Fran
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by Fran
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
Some future government has going to have to apologise for Fran
stealing the education of a whole generation of her unfortunate
students.
God I hope you don't teach history you ignoramus
As it happens, *this* year, I am filling in two periods per week. Most
enjoyable.
Fran- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
God help the little children?
How do explain how the unsofisticated british actually made it across
oceans but would not survive at sydney cove?
Well you'll note that I never claimed that they were rubbish at
sailing. I merely noted the absurdity of Cook offering a view on how
wretched the indigenes were when any non-aristocrat plucked from the
streets of any town or city in the UK at random could have given an
eminently more detailed account of what living wretched was like.
The UK was a society literally, as well as figuratively, wallowing in
its own refuse and misery. We don't know what life expectancy was
amongst the indigenes, but life expectancy in Britain in the 1770s was
about 50, assuming you were unlucky enough to live that long.
The average life expectancy is quite misleading as any visit to a
cemetery will show.

At that time with rudimentary medicine many women died in childbirth,
many children died of childhood illnesses that are now preventable and
many more young men died in industrial accidents and wars. However the
people who did live through these calamities lived to similar ages as
now days.

Mrs Cook herself lived to 94 and Captain Cook died at 50 but probably
would have lived considerably longer apart from the knock on the head. A
quick tour of graveyards of that era will reveal how long most people lived.

The real medical advances have been saving women in childbirth and
children from minor illnesses. Similar advances in industrial accident
prevention have added to the lives of young men. Add all these people in
to the equation and the average age goes up considerably however
longevity hasnt advanced as much as most people imagine.

We are living to roughly the same ages today as they lived in the past
however there are a lot more of us living that long.
Post by Fran
Hobbes classic descriptor of life 'nasty brutish and short' really did
apply. Systematic prostitution including of children, rampant disease
and the most hideous of working conditions punctuated the lives of
these poor people. Every winter in large numbers, many would die in
doorways or under brdges from the cold as the more fortunate
countrymen avcerted their eyes stepping over them. In amongst all of
that was a history of war, repressive violence, crime, and a
burgeoning of the offences for which one could be killed or worse,
sent into prison. British society was one of the few in the world that
thought punishing people for the 'crime' of being poor was a good
idea.
The people who greeted Cook, on the other hand, lived a simple
existence in an unspoiled wilderness, blissfully unaware that such
horrors even existed. There's no evidence at all that they engaged in
any kind of conflict on the scale of the 100 years war. They had no
government or state or organised work. They spent their lives doing
pretty much what they liked. Left alone, they'd not have pined for
anything else.
Well have you ever thought that these blissful people would have been
also wallowing in their own refuse had they not moved on every few days.
The rubbish dumps they left behind them (middens) are evident to today.
Post by Fran
There was all kinds of wretchedness in 1770, but I fancy that most of
the poor of Britain would have traded their lot in a second for such
'wretchedness'.
That said, the purported entry offered by the OP seems bogus and
likely trolling. Cook's party saw the indigenes very much as 'noble
savages' and through the prism of the Garden of Eden story. I'd be
surprised if that's what he wrote. The following entry is dated 19
April 1770. If he were to say something of his first impressions, he
||||
I've found it! The greatest moment in my life has been realized! I
sailed west across the Tasman Sea and reached the southeast coast of
the Southern Continent. I have named it New South Wales.
We are forced to tack in and off the shore in order to avoid the surf.
But the danger pales in comparison to the excitement everyone feels
about discovering a new land. Not since Columbus has a discovery like
this been made.
We have met some of the natives already. They appear darker than the
natives of the Pacific Islands, but they are not Africans. Our guide
and translator from Otaheite, Tupaia, is not able to speak or
understand their language. They were not interested in any of our
gifts either. It is very strange, but they are indifferent to us.
Mr. Banks and Dr.Solander are greatly looking forward to cataloging
the flora and fauna of the land. We will probably go farther inland
within the next few days.
cited in Beaglehole, J. C., The Life of Captain James Cook, (1974)
Owen, Roderic, Great Explorers, 1979
|||
Fran
Fran
2008-02-15 07:40:23 UTC
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Post by Zuby
Post by Fran
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by Fran
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by Fran
Post by Cap. James Cook
This is from my diary that I kept on my voyage...
"The natives of this land are the most backwards of people I have ever seen"
Opines a man wearing a wig and funny riding pants on a boat, who
wouldn't have lasted three weeks with his men at Sydney Cove if
stripped of his supplies.
It was the English who were locking up their people in huge numbers in
hulks, throwing their literal crap into the Thames in such volumes
that the Houses of Parliament stank, and had made such a mess of
things that they had to find somewhere else to filthy up.
Fran
Some future government has going to have to apologise for Fran
stealing the education of a whole generation of her unfortunate
students.
God I hope you don't teach history you ignoramus
As it happens, *this* year, I am filling in two periods per week. Most
enjoyable.
Fran- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
God help the little children?
How do explain how the unsofisticated british actually made it across
oceans but would not survive at sydney cove?
Well you'll note that I never claimed that they were rubbish at
sailing. I merely noted the absurdity of Cook offering a view on how
wretched the indigenes were when any non-aristocrat plucked from the
streets of any town or city in the UK at random could have given an
eminently more detailed account of what living wretched was like.
The UK was a society literally, as well as figuratively, wallowing in
its own refuse and misery. We don't know what life expectancy was
amongst the indigenes, but life expectancy in Britain in the 1770s was
about 50, assuming you were unlucky enough to live that long.
The average life expectancy is quite misleading as any visit to a
cemetery will show.
At that time with rudimentary medicine many women died in childbirth,
many children died of childhood illnesses that are now preventable and
many more young men died in industrial accidents and wars.  However the
people who did live through these calamities lived to similar ages as
now days.
Mrs Cook herself lived to 94 and Captain Cook died at 50 but probably
would have lived considerably longer apart from the knock on the head. A
quick tour of graveyards of that era will reveal how long most people lived.
I think he lost a daughter quite young.
Post by Zuby
The real medical advances have been saving women in childbirth and
children from minor illnesses. Similar advances in industrial accident
prevention have added to the lives of young men. Add all these people in
to the equation and the average age goes up considerably however
longevity hasnt advanced as much as most people imagine.
That's true, but the big killers in Britain were urban pollution,
disease and of course, the cold.
Post by Zuby
We are living to roughly the same ages today as they lived in the past
however there are a lot more of us living that long.
Actually, if you look at the average age at death of all people who
make it to the age of five, life expectancy in most western societies
has increased significantly over the last 50 years -- about five years
more IIRC.
Post by Zuby
Post by Fran
Hobbes classic descriptor of life 'nasty brutish and short' really did
apply. Systematic prostitution including of children, rampant disease
and the most hideous of working conditions punctuated the lives of
these poor people. Every winter in large numbers, many would die in
doorways or under brdges from the cold as the more fortunate
countrymen avcerted their eyes stepping over them. In amongst all of
that was a history of war, repressive violence, crime, and a
burgeoning of the offences for which one could be killed or worse,
sent into prison. British society was one of the few in the world that
thought punishing people for the 'crime' of being poor was a good
idea.
The people who greeted Cook, on the other hand, lived a simple
existence in an unspoiled wilderness, blissfully unaware that such
horrors even existed. There's no evidence at all that they engaged in
any kind of conflict on the scale of the 100 years war. They had no
government or state or organised work. They spent their lives doing
pretty much what they liked. Left alone, they'd not have pined for
anything else.
Well have you ever thought that these blissful people would have been
also wallowing in their own refuse had they not moved on every few days.
Probably, but they didn't. They were a hunter gatherer society.
Post by Zuby
The rubbish dumps they left behind them (middens) are evident to today.
Of course, the stuff they dumped wasn't toxic, which helps.

Anyway, the point was not to account for these differences but rather,
to make the point that they were not, by English standards as wretched
in the main as were most of the English.

Most of them were probably happy for most of their lives. You couldn't
claim that for most British who lived a painful and tenuous existence,
in plain view of a handful of people whose comforts were at their
expense.

Fran
GrassyNoel
2008-02-15 08:03:52 UTC
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Post by Zuby
At that time with rudimentary medicine many women died in childbirth,
many children died of childhood illnesses that are now preventable
Provided a baby survived long enough to a) be born and b) get to
childhood in the first place :)
Post by Zuby
The real medical advances have been saving women in childbirth and
children from minor illnesses.
They're minor *now* but not then. We think of cholera and typhoid as
tropical diseases but they were once common in England.
Terryc
2008-02-15 11:34:06 UTC
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Post by Zuby
Well have you ever thought that these blissful people would have been
also wallowing in their own refuse had they not moved on every few days.
The rubbish dumps they left behind them (middens) are evident to today.
Nope, their sanitation was actually very good.
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